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Below is a transcript of our interview with Doctor Who show runner Chris Chibnall. Big thanks to Erika Ensign and Graham Kibble-White for the transcription! (Note: the interview begins at 3:59 into the episode).

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Chris Chibnall

Steven Schapansky 

Hey there Patreon supporters. This is Steven from Radio Free Skaro here with a sneak preview of our full length interview with Chris Chibnall, former showrunner of Doctor Who this will come in on our main feed and a little bit, but we’re offering it early for you Patreon supporters for to thank you for your support. So here without further ado, here’s our interview with Chris Chibnall. 

So we’re sitting here in our room — Hello, Warren. 

Warren Frey

Hello. 

Steven Schapansky

— with outgoing Doctor Who showrunner Chris Chibnall. 

Chris Chibnall

*Outgoing* 

Steven Schapansky  

Outgoing — as you described yourself on the commentary last night, “unemployed”.

Chris Chibnall

(laughter) Yeah. Will work for tips. 

Steven Schapansky

Yeah. How are you enjoying things this weekend?

Chris Chibnall 

Yeah, I’m really enjoying it. I really didn’t know what to expect, at all. Except I watched Matthew Jacobs’ documentary “Doctor Who Am I”, before I came, it was on ITVX streaming service in the UK. I thought, oh, it’s there. And I watched that. And I was like, I wonder if that’s, that seems like it’s a beautiful film — and I actually emailed him about it — but it’s such a beautiful film, and I thought “that feels like that possibly could have been made for like, three people, and I’m one of them, as a primer on what you might expect”, but it’s been so overwhelming in the most positive possible sense. It’s so emotional and emotive and the scale of it here – the organization — is astonishing. And the people are extraordinary. Extraordinary. It’s mind blowing.

Steven Schapansky 

Yeah, it’s, I mean, what were you expecting? Like? Like, just the reaction? Did you do you have any indication at all what you think you would you’d be in for?

Chris Chibnall  

No, no, because you’re so in a bubble making the show you know, we make the show in a — in studios in Cardiff, you’re going to work every day, you’re doing that stuff. But you’re not thinking about these moments. I mean, we’ve done Comic-Con in Jodie’s first season, both San Diego and New York, but obviously that’s — they’re a different beast in terms of purpose, and they’re broad.

Warren Frey

It’s a PR thing really.

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, yes, it is PR. That’s exactly right. And those were amazing experiences. This is it’s like the experience of Comic-Con dialled up to 10 of intensity in emotion in a great way, because it’s um, because it’s all Doctor Who it’s not Marvel and Star Trek and all that kind of stuff. You know.

Steven Schapansky 

I’m gonna dip back a little bit just because I want to mention it. And I want to have you time to sip your coffee. I’ll do these long-winded–

Chris Chibnall 

You know the secret in the green room here there’s a secret stash of PG Tips tea bags from England that Tony, who runs the green room, has bought over. Every English guest comes in, he’s like, if you need the secret tea. 

Steven Schapansky

Right. 

Chris Chibnall

So slurp tea off mic.

Steven Schapansky

Right . I want to mention a show that has been recently brought to my attention that my wife Erika, who you met last night after the Power of the Doctor commentary. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah!

Steven Schapansky

She loves the show you did called Born and Bred. 

Chris Chibnall

Oh my god! Where is she watching that?!

Steven Schapansky

She watched it like 20 years ago. She was going through a rough patch. And it was just the show that needed.

Chris Chibnall

Right. 

Steven Schapansky

And I’ve seen a couple it just showed up on Kanopy, it’s a different streaming service here, and “Oh! There’s Born and Bred!” And she was so excited. And we started watching it. And of course, there’s your name in the “Created by” credits. 

Chris Chibnall 

Wow. So that’s the first show I ever did for TV, the first hour. It was when I was really starting out, so I’d done Fringe theatre, and some producers came and saw the show that I was doing. My agent put together a meeting, and they had like a piece of paper, like a piece of A4 paper going ahh… Sunday night, 1950s, trains…? (laughter all around) It was a bit more than that, and it was a bit of like we should — it was it was an idea that felt very like The Titfield Thunderbolt, the Ealing comedy. And then I sort of went away and developed it and reworked it and did it, and then I wrote the pilot, and then it got greenlit like really unexpectedly. And it was sort of “So what happens now? What… do I have to write episode two? I don’t know happens!” I’ve never — I’ve written plays… And then you go into Episode Two, I have to do that again, and figure out what it is and figure out what it is over seasons, and so it was a real — and obviously produced by Phil Collinson. And like, and then then subsequently produced by Chris Clough, who was the classic series director who directed some you know—

Steven Schapansky

McCoy episodes!

Chris Chibnall

Yeah McCoy and also some of Trial of a Time Lord, so you know so yeah, it was incredible. It had four seasons and that’s where I kind of learned to I mean, A) learn what an evolving TV series how you how you work on it, but also they were great producers because as time went on, I could go and be in the edits – I was, you know, involved in a lot of, you know, production conversations that sort of where I started doing that and learning that and I think the first time as a writer-producer that you go into the post process, it’s like the other half of the equation opening up and you’re like, ohhh we could ohhh right, okay, this is where you’ve, you’ve — everything’s created in the edit. It really is. And also, it’s the last draft of your script, because you’re working with the reality of the material you’ve got rather than the kind of …the theoretical map that the script is. It’s so when when it’s finally directed and shot and performed — to then go, okay now how do we sculpt this into a, into a thing.

Steven Schapansky 

And that’s where you pretty much cut your teeth on it then like learning on the job.

Chris Chibnall 

Yeah I mean, I hadn’t written — hadn’t had a broadcast hour of television, I had a 30 minute monologue. So James Bolam, who was the leading Born and Bred in the end had done this thing I’d written for local regional London television — London ITV called Stormin’ Norman, which I think is on YouTube. And it’s a 20 minute monologue about a tube driver on his last day at work. That was the only thing I’d had on TV. Oh, I did an episode of a rebooted Crossroads. So those are my two early credits. I was like, well, and then that thing got greenlit, and that went for four seasons. And I feel like it was somewhere around 20– no, hang on — probably about 30 episodes in the end? I don’t know, I can’t remember. Yeah. Something like that. So that’s my first four years of writing for television is just that every year, and it was Sunday night, and it was a big — was a big hit on BBC One. You know, it’s everybody’s, everybody’s mum and dad loved that show. None of my mates watch it. And it was very much I was like, oh, we should be doing — where’s All Creatures Great and Small on the BBC now? 

Steven Schapansky

Yeah, it had that feel to it.

Chris Chibnall

It’s got all those homages and sort of loving for that sort of show that you can — the equivalent of sort of a warm bath really, so when you saying about your partner that it’s like, she was going through a rough time. Like, yeah, it was built for that.

Steven Schapansky

You know what it was charming because, you know, so much television these days is like just, you know, extended universe, and this ties into this, and everything’s dramatic and everything. And there’s something to be said for low stakes television, for just little simple stories in a 1950s English town that are just quaint and nice and lovely. And you know, it’s it is it is a warm bath, and you need those shows, you know.

Chris Chibnall 

You do, and I think — I suspect they’re probably coming back into fashion a bit now, you know, so I’m not suggesting for a second that’s going to come back! (laughter)

Steven Schapansky 

Is that it? Born and Bred: The Next Generation? (laughter)

Chris Chibnall

A reboot! That’s what we’ve come to talk about today. (laughter) I did not expect to start there.

Warren Fry

I’m curious, you mentioned how you’re able to sort of get in the mix with everything back with this show. And that used to be the case in the States, and it’s not apparently not as much – so what’s it like in England is it still the case that somebody start, let’s say starting out or lower level can kind of get in the mix to everything?

Chris Chibnall 

That was really quite an exception at the time. But then obviously, with Russell coming in on Doctor Who, Paul Abbott as well, the work he was doing, there was a greater sense of the showrunner as a as a thing, but it wasn’t really a thing much before early 2000s, mid 2000s. But even then people have struggled to get — because people have producers have to give up power, space in the room, you know, has to be more of a conversation. And so they have to be open to it. But obviously, they hold a lot of the purse strings and the operational procedures. So it’s currently, there’s more demand for writer-producers and showrunners than has ever been in the UK. But there’s no training or anything like that. And so actually one of the things I’ve done post Doctor Who — my company has done and I wanted to I came out with this, what do I do with all this useless knowledge? (laughter)

Warren Fry

That’s a struggle we have every day. (laughter)

Chris Chibnall 

And you know, I sort did Broadchurch straight into Doctor Who, there’s an overlap. And now I’m like, “Oh, well, I’m not going to sit at home and go, I’ll tell you how you do an edit. You know, my dog doesn’t care!” (laughter) So my company we’ve created a training programme for — backed by ITV for next generation of showrunners to come through so we’re doing a six month programme where every month we get together, and we sort of take them through every step of the production process from very first idea to broadcast and transmission and afterwards — and just talk about where does the show really fit into that, what questions will be asked, what — who do you need to work with, how do you build productions? How do you build teams? How do you do post? There are loads and loads of guest speakers – we’ve got a session next week with some *really* great guest speakers coming in. Some of whom will be familiar to you. And we meet up, and there’s seven amazing writers on it. And because there’s no showrunner training, so I really wanted to do something to sort of go: Have this knowledge, do with it what you want, you know, because it’s useless to, you know, to anybody but a very select group. So no, there’s no, there’s no training. That’s a very long answer to your question. 

Warren Frey

That’s okay. 

Chris Chibnall

But there’s absolutely appetite and space, but nobody knows how to work the system because there’s not a written definition of what a British showrunner is and how it works. It’s slightly different to the US. So one of the first things we did was create that sentence and go, “Alright, what’s the definition of the job? How do you do it? What are commissioners looking for? How do you find partners?” Yeah, it’s it’s a really, it’s a subject close to my heart, because I think you’re in charge of — you know, you get a show greenlit, you’re in charge of 30 million quid worth of…

Warren Frey

You’re an artist and a CEO at the same time.

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a little — what generally, in the UK is a bit more common is, is you have a co-CEO. So you’re not going you’re not going — where do we park the trucks? And when you’re across the budget and the schedule, and all that kind of stuff, but you’re not — you’re not ultimately wrestling with the kind of detail of those problems. But yeah, you need — you have responsibility for it, and you need to know that it’s going great and the money is being spent, not just wisely, but *really* creatively and specifically to do the things you want to do. So yeah, it’s tricky. There needs to be much more training. And that’s then also about making sure that there’s more diversity and inclusion in terms of people who are getting that access. So, so yeah, yeah, subject *very* close to my heart right now.

Steven Schapansky 

Obviously, because you brought that into Doctor Who.

Chris Chibnall

Yeah.

Steven Schapansky

Such a diverse writing room and directing credits, I think got a lot more diverse in your — in your time, that was obviously a specific intention, on your part.

Chris Chibnall  

It was the whole purpose of doing the job. I mean, really, because I was coming off Broadchurch where it had just been me, and the thing I had coming in was, I wanted to ensure that the show wasn’t about  — for me, taking the job of showrunner was, it’s not about me, it’s what I can do in that role in terms of bringing in other voices, new voices, stories, and creatives who are coming from backgrounds that maybe haven’t told stories in Doctor Who. And I read a book called The Good Immigrant on recommendation of a couple of people. And a couple of writers in there, including Vinay, and also Inua Ellams, I think has an essay in there as well. And they both talk about watching Doctor Who as children, you know, and how important it was to them. And to read that, and to hear those perspectives, but also to know that — that they weren’t seeing people who looked like them, who came from their backgrounds who, you know, that it wasn’t there on screen? 

Steven Schapansky

Right.

Chris Chibnall

It’s just a very clear and direct example and challenge to go, okay, these are massive opportunities. You know, we talked about untold stories — how you got a show that’s been running when I take it on –so that’s 20—2016-2017, when we’re starting to work on it. That’s what’s that? So that’s 54 years.

Steven Schapansky

Oh, well over 50 years.

Chris Chibnall

Yeah. And it’s been going that way, and you think there are loads of stories that haven’t even been touched upon, haven’t even been — so that’s a huge creative opportunity for the show. So it was about bringing in writers who could tell their stories with authenticity, specificity, personal investment — that could go “Have you thought about this story? Have you thought about this?” And then also directors yeah, like, Mark Tonderai and Nida Manzoor and that allow for Haolu Wang across the thing, I really feel like, they brought so much to the show, and I felt like we delivered on that promise. But that was the purpose is to go — all of the people who have not been as represented in the show as, as other people have, and as a, you know, a straight white male, I feel I’ve been well served by Doctor Who over the years. And it’s like, you know, none of this is – I was talking about this on an interview her yesterday, it’s like, none of it is a criticism of the show or anybody’s work. It’s the opposite of that. It’s going, it’s just it just felt like the moment to open that up and to do that. And, and, and to be to understand — you know, I ended up coming in, but my role, it’s a gatekeeping role, showrunning, essentially, and you make your choices there as to — as to what you do with that, but I was, I was aware of it and wanted to do it. And it’s — I can talk about it, but it was a massive team who did it and it’s a massive group.

Steven Schapansky 

I was gonna ask about that actually because the writers room that you instilled in, in the first series, series 11 — I remember you mentioned to Gary Russell yesterday, you had to look into the legality of it even because it’s not a thing that happens in the UK like it does in North America.

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, that’s right. 

Steven Schapansky

What do you mean by the legality of it all?

Chris Chibnall

The BBC didn’t have a contract that would allow them to do that. So we had to go to the Writers Guild in the UK. So even when I was saying writers room, they’re like, we don’t — we can’t do that. We don’t do that. We’ve never done that, and they’ve done it, they’ve sort of on soaps, they’ve done something –not quite like that. But, it didn’t exist contractually. So it took a year, a year of discussions with contractual people and heads of business affairs and all this kind of stuff to go: We, we have to do this. And it’s… we had to go to the Writers Guild and go, we’re going to do this, how do we make it work financially? What are you paying people to come in for a day? Where’s ownership of the ideas? All that kind of stuff, which obviously all goes to the BBC anyway. But some… and they had to devise wording and a contract and because — it just didn’t exist. And then I think one of the Writers Guild people leaked to the press that Doctor Who were doing a writers room, I was like “thanks a lot!” I thought hose were confidential pieces of information. Yeah, but you know, we got that done, and it was an amazing thing, and also, part of the purpose of it was to create — when you bring in a lot of new people — was to create a team and an atmosphere in relationships between them and a kind of creative trust between all those people. And being in a room with whiteboards and – it just builds that really quickly. And also I had to communicate very quickly, that we were going to go places that the show hadn’t gone before, and how we were going to do that and what it felt like — you sort of if you’re just working on stories, and doing that, but you’re doing it all together, people believe it quicker. If you’re just going “yeah, and then over here, we’re going to do Rosa Parks…” And I remember being in front of the writers room when I go, so Rosa Parks, like Rosa Parks, but Speed, you know, like it’s basically get Rosa on the bus. It’s that — it’s Rosa, but sort of as a thriller? And I could see, like, 10 people in front of me are like “What is happening? How on earth… How would you ever make that work?” And so those moments, then start to spread through the group. And then also the productions go, oh, okay. And so how you’re building a kind of a tone right from the start. In terms of what you want to do, that it was really great for that. And also, they’re really, they’re really great people, all of them.

Steven Schapansky 

Yeah, but it was your name that ended up on as you know, “by Chris Chibnall”. On a lot of the scripts, regardless. Was that a contractual thing? Was it a legality thing? Or you just were the one that ended up painting, the last brush across the whole thing to bring the product out?

Chris Chibnall  

It varied script by script. My name… I mean, I think I did the last pass on every — on every episode apart from one, and then if my name is on the script, then I’ve done either a major pass or a reworking or multiple drafts or whatever… which is tradition I knew coming in, you know, it’s that’s true of Steven, that’s true of Russell in terms of, you know, pretty — 90% of the scripts on the show since it’s come back. There’s one episode, Tesla, that Nina Métivier wrote, that was the only one that didn’t go through — went through my computer, but actually — but it was the final draft was she got it into such a great place. I was like, it’s really, you know, it doesn’t need me, but we just, we just stood together, we went line by line through the — through the script, and I went, is that the exact line of dialogue? Is that the exact stage direction? Is that the exact thing? And so that’s the only one I didn’t type into scenes. She did it all herself. And we just had a kind of two-day discussion on the final draft of that, so, but yeah, yeah. So it’s you inevitably as a Doctor Who showrunner end up doing a *lot* of writing.

Steven Schapansky 

Yeah, was that — I mean, you said you were the only person on Broadchurch.

Chris Chibnall 

Yeah — Lou Fox co-wrote one episode because she came on board the project, when it was in really early stages, and it felt like — I was like, this is — like it’s gonna be quite episodic. It’s *kind of* serialized — and then we get into making it and episode three. I’m like ummmm I’m really sorry about this, but it seems to be really quite individual, and you know, so — right. And then in the second and third seasons, it was all just me, but obviously, storylining with people.

Steven Schapansky

So did you sort of say, you know, this is not what I wanted to do. I didn’t want to have to make a pass on every — or did you know you were getting into the fact that you were going to have to kind of bring every script into line into what your vision for the show was?

Chris Chibnall 

You travel hopefully, so you hope not. But when you have to do it, it’s not like anybody’s failing. And it’s not like they can’t do it, it’s often just a matter of time, or it might be a matter of production, or just, you know, if you had another three months, or three days, or three weeks, like they’re gonna get it there, but it’s like, they’re not gonna get there quick enough because also they don’t have the experience. they might be working on a couple of other projects — it’s, you know, because nobody’s exclusive to Doctor Who when they’re writing on Doctor Who you know apart from the showrunner basically. So it was the conversation we had when they came on board as well was, you know, we will — we want you to get as far as possible and hopefully to, you know, read-through and production amends and shooting script. But it’s based on what we know about the production history of Doctor Who since 2005. And my conversations with Steven and Russell, and seeing, you know, when I’ve been writing episodically on it, which and I wasn’t — I didn’t get rewritten on those so all those mistakes are my fault. But although there are things in like Power of Three, where Steven’s come in, in a scene, because they’re like, they’re in the edit, and I was off doing something else, because “I’ve had to put this scene in and had to put this voiceover and I have to do that.” But the kind of conversation we have with the writers coming in is, “it is very possible-slash-likely this is where it will end up, there will be a showrunner pass. But we want to get you as far as possible. And also will — that doesn’t mean okay, you have to go now”, it’s like every — all those people had the offers to be on set, you know, we did read-throughs, even if — you know and some things, so with like Malorie on Rosa, you know, she’d done her drafts, but also she had other commitments as well, and we were working around that to get her onto the show. But she is so amazing we had such a collaborative working relationship with her. But then, when I did my parts, I was like, let’s reverse it, you know, you’ve been doing your drafts, and I’ve been giving you notes, I’ll do my draft, *you* give *me* notes and sort of doing that. And she was really part of it and came on set, and she’s extraordinary. And obviously then with some of the other writers — it’s — you hope that they then are taking on what that process so that when you’re doing a second season episode with them, it can go further, they’re more cognizant of the particular demands of the show. It also needed to be kind of educative and craft-giving to the people involved as well, you know, and it’s amazing. Now, when I look at Lockwood and Company and you see Ed Hime and Joy Wilkinson, who are basically, you know, the two main writers on that show, other than the, you know, Joe Cornish is doing one and eight, and it’s like them, you know, so and that’s thrilling.

Steven Schapansky

Yeah. It’s, I mean, Doctor Who’s kind of, you know, it was like 13 episodes for a while there, and then it started–  dropped down to 12, for Peter Capaldi, and ended with a special and then yours was 10. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah. 

Steven Schapansky

Did — was that just like BBC inflation, was that just the cost of making TV going up? Or was that…

Warren Frey

With COVID too.

Steven Schapansky

Well, that’s after the fact.

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, with the first two seasons, it was when I came in — it 13 is a is a bit punishing. I mean, doing 11 was a — do, you know, I can’t remember — it was a way to — that I think the budget had been static for quite a while. So it was a way to go — there wasn’t any more money knocking about — if you do slightly less, you can amortise that, but so each episode gets a slightly higher budget and you can think about filming, you know, not in the UK occasionally and stuff like that, and putting it towards visual effects. But it was also — the thing you have to do on Doctor Who, you have to keep projecting sort of two or three years forward because A) it’s going to take you 18 months to make a series from when you start — first start thinking about it. I don’t mean sort of year on year, although sometimes turnarounds have been that. But you’ve also got to think where is TV going to be in that point. So actually, you know, by the end when we’re doing you know, even in our second season, you could feel the shape of TV series around the world conflating and sort of — not conflating – contracting!

Steven Schapansky

Yeah yeah.

Chris Chibnall

And becoming six and eight episodes. And we’re like doing 11., you go, “oh, I thought that was going to be a small version of a TV — a small version of a season compared to the 13s and 14s that, you know, Russell would be doing. But actually, it feels slightly out of step.” You know, and you’ve sort of actually suddenly it’s going out and you think ooh, that feels like every other show is a couple of episodes shorter than that now. So you kind of want to keep track of – you always want it to feel the right shape in terms of modern television. And that’s really, and I guess, and I would say, I would say this, but you know, particularly in the last five, six years, television has changed absolutely, entirely, and it will continue to evolve. But that’s why we were doing — we were questioning things like “Okay, should we should we try it on Sunday night? Should we try a New Year special?” You know, and they’re all just like elements to go: Does that keep it — does it keep the audience engaged and interested, but also is it — is it just making sure that it feels of a place in modern television? That’s the sort of big thing — you never really talk about that, but it’s that’s the conversations you have with the commissioners at the BBC is like, how do you keep it not feeling like a relic? Because the world is moving so fast.

Steven Schapansky 

It is. I mean, I think, like, I think what — House of Cards I think debuted on Netflix, I think 2012, which is like the first prominent series that dropped all at once. That’s not necessarily the best model. But you know, people, the UK press, let’s face it will bash the ratings [of Doctor Who] because “Oh, it’s not getting Voyage of the Damned numbers”.

Warren Frey

Also it’s a remake of a UK series so they’re gonna bash it [House of Cards] for that.

Steven Schapansky

But you look at it, and you know, now you look at it and Doctor Who is the only one that’s sort of being broadcast on a terrestrial channel, everything else is going to Disney+ or Star Trek’s going out on Prime or Paramount+, I mean, this was the battle — this is what happened in the five years that you were doing Doctor Who.

Chris Chibnall 

Completely, and that’s — you sort of have to not engage with the ratings, because also — but when I’m working with the producers of The Crown on something at the minute, and they’re amazing and spectacular, and that show is extraordinary. But the UK ratings for it are about 2 million now that they’ve started to be audited. So — and the Marvel shows are doing, you know, less than that. And so it’s really interesting is sort of, yeah, you’re — it’s not just comparing apples with oranges, but also it’s like, there’s no narrative around that, that’s a kind of 10- or maybe even 20-years-ago conversation is like, is like that, obviously you just — but how you evaluate a TV show is now — when I look at the final scenes of His Dark Materials on the BBC is getting 1.4 million and a 9% share. And it’s like, that’s like in a Sunday at seven o’clock. It’s an amazing show, it’s like, it’s beloved. It’s brilliant. And it’s an HBO co-production that has, you know, huge resources. And it’s like — but there’s not a “oh my god” you know —

Steven Schapansky  

If it was Doctor Who that would have been kicked around in the ratings on Monday morning.  

Chris Chibnall  

Sure, yeah. So you have to absent yourself from that. I kind of look at it, and I go, like the only figure –the final overnights on Power of the Doctor, which is also a standalone, and it hasn’t been on i — like it’s the audience share that you’re really looking at because that’s the thing that you can compare like to like. You can’t get the actual figures because people are, you know, the top, the top show now on in the UK in terms of overnights really other than like a Happy Valley outlier or something — but a regular what’s in the top five shows — not dramas, which aren’t really big rating overnight things — is like about 3.5 million, 4 million. That’s number one on the day. That’s number one on the week. 

Steven Schapansky

Wow. 

Chris Chibnall

You know, and that’s, and I think, you know, Power of the Doctor was on the overnights was something like 28, 29% share, which is sort of what Doctor Who has been doing for — you know, ever since its come back. It’s you know, at points it’s gone massive and gone into like 42% or 46% share, but it kind of, you know, any drama now in the UK if you’re above… I mean, actually, if you’re sometimes now it’s really if you’re above 15, 16% share, you’re doing really well. But if you’re if you’re sitting in the 20s, right, you’re doing well. And so that’s the only thing that so you can’t get involved in the narrative. And I know it’s a real, you know, fans and you know, I totally understand that. When it you know, you follow and you obsess over it and you go “oh my god, this and that.” There was never a point in conversation with the Beeb, they were like, we want this. We want it on Sunday night. We want it — we want to try it out on New Year’s Day. You know, there’s lots of — one of the hardest — it’s not hard, but it’s one of the things about being a showrunner that you have to learn to accept is your intent is constantly questioned. You go “That’s not our intent. We’re not doing that for that reason.” And so, so that’s the sort of hardest thing. So you sort of have to move away from any conversation about the ratings or these things. You know, I know some people are really like, “Why is there no Christmas special with Jodie?” as if it’s like a militant policy. And it was like we had a conversation. At the start. I was like, I wonder if we should try — the BBC saying there’s been a lot of Doctor Who Christmas specials, there’s been a lot of stories with snow in, and maybe..

Steven Schapansky 

Was that their subtle hint to sort of say maybe think of a different night?

Chris Chibnall 

It was a commissioner you know, one of the – there’s about three commissioners, and there was a commissioner who just went, maybe, you know, maybe just think about that. And it’s like, we were just like, and also a lot of their big dramas were premiering on New Year’s Day – it had become a bit – Sherlock would play there, Dracula would play there, you know, Happy Valley plays there now. So it’s like, well, let’s try that the first year and see what happens, and it’s not like “I hate the Christmas specials.” I LOVE them. I love them. And actually Spyfall was going to go out on Christmas Day, and then it was too scary. 

Steven Schapansky

Really?

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, they had a policy — Yeah. And also it’s like, where do you put the second part? So there was a moment where that was gonna be Christmas Day – Boxing Day. 

Steven Schapansky

Oh, wow. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah. And so it wasn’t like a whole — every year it’s like, (mock sternly) “Do not come to me and mention the Christmas special!” 

Warren Frey

“I hate Christmas.”

Chris Chibnall

I love Christmas!

Steven Schapansky

Chris Chibnall killed Christmas. (laughter)

Warren Fry 

The other big takeaway — stats don’t matter.

Chris Chibnall

You know — yeah yeah, he [Warren] doesn’t care! So you’re having you’re having to keep up with the modernity of conversation. So yeah, so in the se– and then in the third season, they were like yeah, let’s do New Year’s Day. That one as one of the three final specials or — so it’s really – you are constantly questioning these things and testing them, and sometimes it comes down to logistics or how do you — if you launch Spyfall on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, when it’s a series launching because then there’s a big gap, and how do you do a second series launch and does that help? You know and all that kind of stuff is you’re live — and I know it conditions people’s responses, and you sort of see it through that prism. But like I say, often you feel like you’re doing the work, and the decisions you’re taking, you’re taking them because you’re getting data. And you’re having conversations with people who really know which, you know, I think the move to Sunday night for Jodie’s era in the UK has been — it was a massive success in terms of — and it just refreshed everything and made people look at it again. But it’s like, it doesn’t mean now you do that ongoing or constant. It’s like you’re constantly you’re doing it for the moment you’re in as — to keep it live.

Steven Schapansky

Yeah, it was — I mean, your time sort of also saw a transition from just in the way the TV industry, but also the way that — like the position of brand manager sort of expired at the end of the Steven Moffat era, and everything’s sort of brought in house. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah.

Steven Schapansky

…for the BBC. And then BBC America, I think was starting to lose funds on their — you could kind of tell that they were kind of starting to fade into obscurity was this, was this a factor, was a problem perhaps, that you’re having to deal with in this sort of, you know, because, you know, in from my view, it was almost like the BBC promo department says, “Okay, we’ve promoted that show. Okay, what’s next on — Oh, Doctor Who is premiering in 10 days, let’s do a promo.” You know, it was kind of being treated like the other shows were when before it felt like it had a little bit more of a spotlight, I suppose when they had a specific promo team. I don’t know if that was — that matches reality?

Chris Chibnall 

No, I don’t think it does. I mean, I think if you look at the work around our first series, particularly, there was a massive campaign, there’s a massive domestic campaign, BBC America were the ones who paid for us to come out to the comic cons do that and to do to get Hall H and a cover of Entertainment Weekly. And, you know, I think it’s inevitably with a second season and a third season of a Doctor, they’re kind of like, we did that in the first year. And also budgets are shrinking, the BBC is under attac. The BBC, you know, for sort of something like Flux, for example, they, their budget is they can only really advertise on the BBC. Because they, you know, that they have to make — keep doing the same amount of things with less money, it’s just the fact of where the BBC, is and you know, so it’s why, like, the Disney partnership is so amazing, and like five years overdue, you know, and yeah, yeah, everybody was really doing their best. But also, there was a transition to BBC Studios from BBC in-house, which was done while I was — before we even got into production I literally got an email going, by the way, you’re going to be employed by BBC Studios now, like, before I even started on the job I was like “O…kay?” (laughter) So yeah, but I think those marketing teams are really brilliant in what they do. But it’s, it’s hard to punch through, and you need big budgets. And also, I think, what promotion is, is another thing that has changed with television. You know, if you look at any show on Netflix, generally, there are exceptions, but generally, they don’t do…

Steven Schapansky

It just drops.

Chris Chibnall

It drops. And Netflix is its own marketing campaign. I was talking to somebody from next Netflix and they said everybody obsesses with posters and trailers, and all this kind of stuff. With Netflix, it’s like the biggest marketing asset of Netflix is Netflix. It’s on your TV every day. It’s like — that’s marketing. Netflix is marketing you Netflix, they’ve done this code, and everything else is now 10 years out of date. It’s not to say, trailers, posters, it’s not to say that stuff isn’t important and, and gives you a sense of it, and in the world, but it’s, it’s all of these things that you think are true, are not automatically true anymore. And so you’re constantly — and everybody in the TV industry is going, “What does this mean? How does this work? What is this?” It’s an amazing time, but yeah, you do have to keep up, and you have the resources you have. And we also had, you know, massive inflation, massive talent inflation, you know. So there’s all those sorts of things. But yeah, yeah. But also, it’s hard. It’s hard to talk about the show because you sometimes end up talking about only the challenges, you know, and only and it sounds like, you know, sort of — why I have to be really careful in interviews, and how many to give, because it’s like, those are the things people want to know, but actually, it’s not the experience of making it. It’s like that’s one day out of your year is like, when you’re talking about those things in that campaign and how many resources they do or don’t have, and you can influence it to a certain extent. But you also, if they’re coming to you going, this is the budget, this is the promotional budget, this is what we’re going to do, and you can work within those parameters, you know. There’s also things like with the BBC, the average age of the viewer on BBC One is now over 60. 

Steven Schapansky

Wow.

Chris Chibnall

You know, so it’s like, people don’t come to the BBC at the moment, you know, and they’re trying to change it. They’re trying to do digital. There’s like, Doctor Who was the only show people — and I saw the presentation and the data on this, the only show that a certain portion of the audience come to the BBC to watch. They come to the BBC to watch, they watch Doctor Who and they go. That starts to fade because people are not in the habit of watching the BBC. But also how do you reach those people to let them know Doctor Who is on if you can only do a BBC campaign? Like, these challenges are real and extraordinary, and everybody’s trying to figure those things out. But it’s like, if you want to do that you got to spend X millions, which, and even then there’s no guarantee that will do that. So you’re constantly working in this evolving media environment, and, yeah, I think the brand manager — we had someone lined up to be a brand- executive, brand president, when – we had somebody amazing and when I took the job on — or just after I took the job on — and then they were – they didn’t, it didn’t get over the line. So the approach was gonna be very, very different and would have been fantastic, but they couldn’t — the studios couldn’t get the deal done in the end. So it’s like, you know, it, you’re working in the real world, and I know at times you go why are they doing this? Or why are they doing this? It’s like, it’s, it’s not like people haven’t thought about it or aren’t trying, or don’t want to do it. It’s like you are working against… Warner’s and HBO and, you know, The Wizarding World, all of who, which are unbelievably resourced, you know? But the thing we have, is we’re making Doctor Who and that — And to my point about, like, the best thing about doing Doctor Who is making Doctor Who and the joy of that is like, the thing that nobody says, “Is it really fun to do?” And you’re like, I can tell you a week of stories about how much fun it is to do, and to go, you know, and see Arwel and Daf sending me a WhatsApp of a junkyard Dalek mechanism that will mean we don’t have an operator, and you know, it’s like fun every day, you know?

Steven Schapansky 

And we never focus on that. We’re nerds that we just think, well how…

Chris Chibnall  

You want to see how the sausage is made. 

Steven Schapansky

We do. We’re interested in logistics. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? And I’m the same, but it’s like, but I think yeah, like, you don’t get many opportunities to go, “oh, goodness, me, this is amazing” you know. And I think it’s like, it ends up being — and then sort of narratives get placed on times, or eras, or what, or people or whatever. And it’s like, they’re not really true. 

Warren Fry  

Received fan wisdom has never been true.

Chris Chibnall

That’s really true, yeah. 

Warren Frey

We didn’t think that for decades.

Chris Chibnall 

Yeah, it’s like, I mean, we were talking before you started recording because Steven, you’re wearing a Beatles t-shirt. 

Steven Schapansky

I am.

Chris Chibnall

And we were talking about Get Back the, Paul Jackson…

Steven Schapansky

Peter Jackson. 

Chris Chibnall

Peter Jackson… Paul Jackson? (laughing) And just saying, well, the received wisdom of the Let It Be sessions is misery. It’s quite brown. It’s, it’s grainy. They were all grainy on the day. And they were having a terrible time. And then you watch that and you go, it was joyous. It was delightful, and you see creativity happening in front of you. And it’s like, that’s, I sort of feel that it’s very easy for narratives around production on anything to be like, “Oh, I heard this thing. And therefore that’s true, and now all of that now that’s true of everything to do with it.” And it’s not true.

Warren Frey

It’s the only thing I have to work with so I’m gonna work with it.

Chris Chibnall

Yeah. And you get all sorts of things. I remember the thing that — and other people lie — is the thing, you know, and I remember the first week we were shooting, we had a call from a journalist when we were doing Woman Who Fell to Earth. We were doing the crane sequence first. Oof, that was AMAZING. We’re down in the docks, there’s two cranes because of you, Chris, and it’s, you know, 1 am and it was like we went down — it was the most joyous thing seeing Jodie, go up and scissor lift on a crane. I’ve never seen anyone happier in my life. I still have a video of that of her waving at everyone going “I’m going up!” But I remember we got a call from a journalist the next day, you know, and where they said, “Yeah, we’ve heard that everybody’s — the crew are refusing to work. Jodie’s making them work ‘til 2 am. There’s a really bad atmosphere on set.” And I was like, I will call that journalist and go “we are having the best time, like literally, the crew adore her. She’s having a great time. It’s sheduled to go to — we’ll send you the call sheets, it’s scheduled to go to 4am. We’re on night shoots”, but it’s like that’s, and that is a symbol of — that happens every couple of days on Doctor Who, forever. Somebody’s ringing up and going “I’ve heard this”, and it’s a negative story, and in order to get stories and stuff and so that’s also part of it. And that’s — then some of those come out and you go none of that is true, but it can become — but as fans you’re receiving that as “this is what’s happening on the show.” You know, so it’s — and I don’t know how you combat that. You know, you can combat it with lots of white noise, but — you also have to go “this is how the modern media works. This is how social media works is people can say things and they’re just not true.” I will say positive side of that is the Daily Star in the UK published an exclusive showbiz story saying — in the first season — saying that Jodie was about to get a talking cat companion. And I have that framed (laughing) because that’s my favourite. You can make that up. That’s great! Thank you Peter Dyke. I said that to him in the end. That’s fantastic. It was a full page in a newspaper. 

Steven Schapansky

A talking cat?

Chris Chibnall

Yeah. 

Steven Schapansky

Wow.

Warren Fry 

I wouldn’t be against it.

Chris Chibnall 

No, right? You know, oh yeah maybe we should have…

Steven Schapansky 

That didn’t wind up on the bucket list then for Power of the Doctor?

Warren Fry 

If it shows up in RTD’s era…

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, he can have that. No, no, I would have loved to have done K-9, but you know, we didn’t get – Jodie and K-9 was a thing I wanted. 

Steven Schapansky

Oh really? 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, but you can’t get the rights.

Steven Schapansky 

Oh yeah, of course. The rights. Wow. Was it always gonna be three years right from the get-go? 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, yeah, it was…

Steven Schapansky

Did you know just how much work it would be to say, you know three years — like Peter Davison walked into Patrick Troughton when he started Doctor Who, and he says “Only do three years.” Did you like run into Phillip Hinchcliffe and he said like “Only three years.” (laughing)

Chris Chibnall 

I mean I did write to Philip Hinchcliffe, but not about that. I said “Come and visit the set because I’m here because of you.” And he did that. And that was that was amazing.

Steven Schapansky

Oh did he really? Oh wow.

Chris Chibnall

But I was — yeah, I think that that Patrick Troughton-Peter Davison thing is in my head from that that knowledge. But also there was a conversation with Jodie right at the start because you know, Broadchurch was the first returning show she’d ever done. She came from film, she — you know, so that, and that was — nobody was optioned off the first season of Broadchurch, she was just going to be one and, one and

Steven Schapansky

Done.

Chris Chibnall

Kind of one-and-done, although I was like, “I might have a couple more… anyway… No let’s just do this.” But even in conversations about that, it’s you had to talk to the actors and go, “Well, let’s try this.” And she was “I’ve never done a second season of something. That’s really weird.” And there were various things in terms of timings — in terms of family life for both of us, that it was, you know, that we knew we had things we wanted to do with our families, we had things coming up. My kids had their GCSEs and A-levels in the same year — in 2022, so for me, it was a hard end date of “I do not want to be working on the show in 2022.” I mean, I ended up doing a bit of post and stuff. But that was always from the start. And, but also with Jodie, it was just that we had a very clear conversation. It’s like, “Let’s do three years, because you can get a three-year arc or three seasons. And you know, and obviously even that ends up being disrupted or slightly different. You want the arc. And also, what we had a pact was we will go together as well, you know. And there were, like, light conversations about you know, the bit — there were conversations with the BBC at a certain point, and they were like “Are you sure? Is she sure? What do you want to do? You know, but it’s like, there wasn’t really a world where either of us would go for that. And actually, we ended up doing more because we ended up doing extra specials. And actually, once the pandemic comes in, it’s like, all bets are off. You know, really. So it’s like, again, it’s the sort of, “Did you have a plan? Did it work out?” It’s like, (laughing) there was definitely a plan kind of worked out? And we did sort of what we said we’d do? But it wasn’t in the same shape. So but yes, short answer. Yes. It was always that. And you know, I really did not want to do the 60th.

Steven Schapansky  

Really? 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah yeah yeah.

Steven Schapansky

Like, the episode itself, or just the act of making such a massive giant finale? Like, what? What drove you away from not wanting to do that?

Chris Chibnall  

Because I thought well, I’d have been in for you know, X amount of years. And also, I’d’ve had to have done 2022…

Steven Schapansky

Right? And you’d be waiting a whole year. Yeah.

Chris Chibnall  

But I’d have had to have done the, you know — but also it because I think it just the show thrives on energy, and the show thrives on regeneration, and it thrives — it was just not a — it was not a thing that I was like looking at and going — because also then, and — you know, then, if you were doing a new Doctor or something, then, but then you have to stay on and see that Doctor through, really, you know, you don’t HAVE to, but yeah, it just didn’t feel — That’s a long time. You know? So yeah, no, no, it wasn’t — And also that, you know, that’s what’s great about this year already. You can feel the crackle and the energy. And it’s 60th and it’s new. And yeah, and so then to have Russell doing it, and then David come out and then amazing Ncuti coming in. Yeah, that’s like that’s exactly what it needs, you know. So yeah, no, no, it was never… no.

Steven Schapansky  

How did — I mean obviously, it affected everyone, but how did COVID…hit with you?

Chris Chibnall 

It made it really easy. (laughing) Made it simpler.

Warren Fry  

You were one of the few TV shows doing it?

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, we shot for a year. We short for a year continuously. We never shut down. I don’t think there was any other show that that kind of didn’t shut down. I mean, it was just really hard. It was less fun. Because you’re everybody’s distancing. Everybody’s masked. For — all of the story work was done over Zoom. You know, and we were also doing — we had to reformat the show entirely and go you know, okay, this — there’s certain things you have to — the big thing — And again, I was talking about this on stage yesterday here, was the sort of — we had to — we spent, I don’t know Nikki Wilson, Ceres Doyle, Matt Strevens, and me, we kind of — it took us four months to figure out — there was just a point where it’s like you can’t make Doctor Who in the pandemic. You can’t do it, like nobody’s doing it. And they’re struggling to make EastEnders, we would hear rumours it’s like “EastEnders tried to move a piece of scenery yesterday, and it took two hours, because of distancing and because of you know.” And it’s like, “Oh my goodness.” You know, and they, you know, the email trails across all of that will look like some weird historical document when you see all that. But it took four months to go “How could you make it? You know, where are the obstacles? Where are the obstructions? And how — what would that mean?” You know, and it was like, okay, you’d have to have a lot fewer sets, so they’re – Okay, but what if we reuse them, you know, and then you’re also at the back of your head talking about, you know, Troughton, Davison and the three years when you look at this, I’m going, okay, Ark in Space and Revenge of the Cybermen, they re-used, so that was okay. There’s always a precedent on Doctor Who where you go “It’s that.” You know, when somebody goes, “Oh, you’re doing these historicals?” I’m like, “It’s William Hartnell! Historicals!” So yeah, it was just okay. Well, these we would — and you could, you could have less characters, so some people are going to have to come back and you go, but what’s interesting with that, is you sort of go, you’re sort of going back to making an old fashioned six-parter, you know, really, but except, you want to make it as episodic as you can. So it’s a real weird hybrid of it. But what I loved about it is it then brings creative benefits, but also risk. Creative risk is where Doctor Who should live, I think, you know, and not everybody’s gonna agree with that. And, you know, some people would much prefer familiarity. And, you know, I understand that, but it was always coming in, it’s like, how do you keep a 54-year-old show fresh and doing things and startling sometimes, and, you know, and reassuring others, and bring a variety of tones in? So yeah, it disrupted everything. We had to reimagine the production of the show, reimagine the narrative structure of the show, reimagine how you brought actors in and out, had to reimagine how you do prosthetics with COVID. And, you know, people like Craige Els, and Swarm and Azure, you know, those guys were in at like, 3 am, you know. On days when they were shooting. Normally they’d be in at, I don’t know, five or, you know half 4, but it’s like, it’s another two hours on their day, because everything has to move slower and be distanced and everybody’s, being so…

Steven Schapansky  

Because this is before vaccines essentially, so it’s all about distancing and masks at this point.

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah. I think the first we — I think we started in October, November 2020. That right? Yeah. And then we had about six weeks shooting before Christmas, and then a two week stand-down, and those six weeks were the hardest I’ve known on anything ever, and everybody was so on-edge, so tense. And we were doing big things, you know, we were in the, I mean, in the Crimea in – it’s my fault, you know, they’re there in the rain in the fog, and all that whether you see on screen in the Sontaran episode, there’s not a lot of CG other than the soldiers. It was miserable. And then, but you’re also looking at rushes and going, this is fantastic, you know. But that was very difficult. Everybody was really scared, you know, because of the – but what it did, and the thing that’s the most kind of small, micro and macro stressful is, you’re in a job where every day, everything can stop, and everything can break. Because if one person gets COVID, everything stops. And if you — and also, there’s, there’s a whole thing with insurance that you might not be able to get the right insurance. So it’s like, if it stops, it maybe just stops, and you throw it all away. It was such high stakes producing. And the, you know, the reason that’s a year we shot, which I don’t think Doctor Who has ever shot that continuously for a year, maybe you know, not, not for long, not for a few years, at least — to make, especially to make that few episodes, you know. But the thing about that, and the thing that kept it going was Jodie, like she didn’t go out for a year. She isolated and bubbled with Mandip and John, and it’s like, the sacrifice that she made and the sacrifice the crews made. But also, you know, when the time the history of Doctor Who comes to be written, COVID supervisors may not get that much of a mention. There are three or four people on the show. Their responsibility was to keep everybody safe. And they did that for a year, and they did testing, and it’s like those things are what get the show on air, you know, so yeah. It was, yeah, everything was challenged.

Warren Fry 

Speaking of Jodie isolating, was it her idea to do the thing in the closet? Which to this day is inspiring.

Chris Chibnall 

Funnily enough, we – I should look on my phone, but we literally WhatsApped each other on the same morning, and I was like, I’m thinking… and it’s really… it’s really it’s gonna sound really grandiose, and I don’t mean it – it didn’t come from that place. But there was a point when it was, obviously there were national announcements. Everybody’s in lockdown, you know, and I just WhatsApped, Jodie going, feel like, everybody needs to hear from the Doctor right now. And it sounds ludicrous now as we talk in a place in LA, it’s like, but I just went, if I’m a kid, and we’re into lockdown, and there’s a pandemic, and you’re basically hearing on the news, this could be the end of humanity, if we don’t all stay inside. I really need to hear from the Doctor “It’s gonna be all right.” And I don’t know how we do this. And she was like, “that’s exactly” — I was, you know, she was like, “I was just typing the same thing.” But you know, when you’re on WhatsApp and you’re seeing somebody typing, I’m like — what’s happening here? And I was like, “Okay, how do we do this?” And we just said, let’s just keep it to ourselves for the moment, and what if I just write something for you? Maybe we could, you know, she’s like, “I’ve got the coat. I’ve got the coat at home.” Because we’re all in lockdown. We’re not making Doctor Who at this point, this is March is it?

Steven Schapansky  

It’s like, very early days in this pandemic, yeah.

Chris Chibnall  

I think it’s probably just after the big, you know, Boris Johnson announcement in the UK and stuff like that. I can’t remember what the dates are. And so she, she went to find the coat, which she’d got at home, because I think she did some hospital visits in the coat, and that’s why she had it. I mean, not COVID.

Steven Schapansky

Pre-COVID, yeah yeah. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, that’s why she had it. And so I sort of wrote something quickly, and then sent it to her. But just on Whats- like, everything was done by WhatsApp. So I sent that I’m like, okay, here’s a kind of a monologue, and she was like, “I could film it in my cupboard. I’ve got the coat, I could film it in my cupboard.” “So okay, yes. Okay. Right.” And so then she sent it back with, you know, a couple of things. And she went “We don’t need to say that; we could do that.” And it went back and forth once I think, and sent it back. And then she just sent it to me. She’s just like, see what this is, and then we can do it again. And I think that’s what that’s what we put out. 

Steven Schapansky

Take one.

Chris Chibnall

So then I was like, I guess we have to tell some people or ask permission, or I don’t know, maybe need to tell the BBC that we have this thing and would it be okay? And you know, and then everybody at the BBC was like, and I sent it to Piers Wenger and Charlotte Moore, who’re like the big, you know, head honchos at the BBC in terms of their relationship to Doctor Who. And I think it took a couple of days for them to go, “Yeah, no, this is — Okay, we should do this.” And then it went out. And yeah, it was — yeah. So it was we just both had the same thought. And it was like, I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s right. And you didn’t want to be pompous or…

Warren Fry 

You didn’t want the Imagine video. (laughter)

Steven Schapansky  

Which had good intentions, but came across badly.

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, but it was just like, I thought, it’s just that thing, you’re constantly as a showrunner, I think you’re constantly going, what is it going to feel? How am I at eight years old feeling like this? How are my kids feeling about this? How are my, you know, nephew and niece feeling about this? And what would anything help — to be, to have that role in Doctor Who at that point? I think we both felt well, this might just make a difference. And also was Jodie’s Doctor has that…um…

Steven Schapansky  

…caring nature. 

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah – it’d be the first thing she would be doing! She was “Oh, I’m gonna send that message about the pandemic to 2020.” Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah. So it was, it was sort of one of the things I’m most proud of, and actually, and then, you know, it goes out, and then I’m watching the 10 o’clock news for the pandemic updates and “Oh, Jodie’s on the news! That thing she filmed in her cupboard is played out on the news at 10 in the UK.” I was like, “This is insane.” You know, those incredible Doctor Who moments like her reveal video, you know, you’re just like, “Oh, this is, you know, you just never know when it’s, it’s gonna go.” So yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. It’s the little things I forget about that. But it was so hugely important to us in that moment.

Warren Fry  

Take it from me, it didn’t just inspire little kids.

Steven Schapansky 

It inspired a lot of people.

Chris Chibnall  

I’m sort of talking about in terms of writing to myself, you’re always writing to yourself, and it’s like, I kind of needed to hear from the Doctor. And, you know, you sort of have to go “I hope other people feel the same.”

Steven Schapansky 

Did you have to hear from her? 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah.

Steven Schapansky

I mean, at what point did you sort of like, you know, we all had dark thoughts in the early days, thinking “What is going to happen to the world?”

Chris Chibnall

Yeah.

Steven Schapansky

Did you have any doubts that your last season might not ever be made? Because of COVID just cancelling it?

Chris Chibnall  

There was a week where it was not going to be made. There was a week where I was, I’d been offered another job. And because the BBC was just like — the BBC studios, and it’s like, where’s the money coming from? How are we going to do this? Is it too difficult? And it literally went down to the wire of like, yeah, there was an hour on one day when it’s like, it was done. And yeah, we had to do — there are certain things I had to do to get that season made. Because they couldn’t find a way to do it. And so yes, yes, there absolutely was, and it was like, “Okay, we might have to be going. Okay, so Revolution, the Daleks. That that’s it.” Because also Jodie, Jodie had a thousand job offers, and then everything was changing, you know, obviously she had a contract, an option, but also you know, I know what jobs she gave up to do the third season, which, obviously because it had moved in the schedule, you know, she had stuff lined up for when we were supposed to finish shooting, but then was delayed by the pandemic. And you know, she’s in demand, and so she sacrificed a lot. Everybody sacrificed a lot. But again, see now it’s like, we’re into that – everybody’s sacrifice and painful, but it’s not that at all! But yeah, we did have those moments. Yeah, completely. And there was, yeah, there’s some things like, I’ll just keep to myself. (laughing)

Steven Schapansky

Right.

Warren Frey

Of course, of course.

Steven Schapansky 

Did you have like an idea mapped out for that third season before COVID came along and ruined everything?

Chris Chibnall  

It was pretty nascent. But we were talking to writers. We knew which writers we were using. That was the hardest thing is like, you know, a lot of the people like Pete McTighe, and Ed Hime, and Nina, and Vinay, and all those people were, we were talking about what their stories would be. So that was really difficult. But it was quite early stages. Because you could see it coming for a — you could see the pandemic coming. You’re like, this is, you know, this is gonna be hard. So it never got that far. It’s not like a missing season – you know like sometimes you’ve got a missing season with all those scripts! And it wasn’t that, it was more like it — we stopped ourselves in our tracks. I remember, storylining with Vinay for one day, and going — at the BBC, in White City, and I remember going into the loos, and it was like, suddenly, every — there were just suddenly massive posters up on how to wash your hands. And it was like, just gone up like since, like, at lunchtime, everything up. I was like, “I don’t know, if we’re gonna get to make this.” We’re like, really early stages of it, you know, so it was just — it wasn’t like it came out of nowhere. It was like, even before Christmas there was the talk of something’s happening. And you know, so you could just feel the cloud approach. So yeah, yeah, we had. Yeah, that was hard not working with all those people knowing we would have to reduce episode count in order to get it done.

Steven Schapansky 

But you did do it. You did get it done. 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, yeah. 

Steven Schapansky

And by the end of your last season of recording it, it was a lot, you know, you were quarantining in bubbles and stuff. By the end things have gotten a little more lax and hopefully a little more celebratory.

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, yeah, completely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were still doing COVID protocols, though on Power of the Doctor, so you know, but yes, yeah yeah yeah. And we had a — and we did have a proper wrap party, and you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Schapansky 

Do you think you’ll ever write for the show again? 

Chris Chibnall

(immediately) No. (all laugh)

Steven Schapansky

No?

Chris Chibnall 

I’ve done a lot!

Steven Schapansky

Yeah, you have. 

Chris Chibnall

You know, it’s like, and then Torchwood as well. And, you know, that’s it’s a lot of episodes. And it’s a lot of stuff. And it’s a lot of material, and I absolutely love it. But it’s also like… there are other things that I need and want to write, and it’s like you have to, you have to make those choices. So no, and also because, you know, like, it’s not like there’s anything about Doctor Who I’ve left unsaid, you know. I had the opportunity, and I had the control. And also it’s like, I don’t want to take up that slot. I want to see somebody who’s never written for Doctor Who coming in and doing and doing that under Russell or whatever, you know, and people you know, from backgrounds that haven’t yet got into the show, or the writing team or the directing, so that’s the most exciting thing is I’m going I want to see what their Doctor Who is. That’s always what is thrilling, because that’s like, that’s gonna give you something where you go, “Oh!” You know, the exciting thing about Ncuti that you just think, wow, where is that gonna go? Where? It’s so thrilling!

Warren Frey

He’s made entirely of charm, from what I can tell.

Chris Chibnall

And amazingness! Yeah. It’s like a wonderful, brilliant, perfect bit of casting. And I’ve, you know, only seen him in terms of Sex Education, other stuff that he’s done. But yeah, how fantastic is that? No, so no, I don’t want to go in. I want to I just want to watch it. And I’ve had to say to Russell, “Please don’t tell me…” Like he told me two things that I was like “Don’t tell me these things!” I want to, you know, so yeah, no, no, no, I’m much more excited to be a viewer.

Steven Schapansky 

Did he tell you which Doctor was going to appear at the end of Power of the Doctor, because the Tennant regen- bit was shot well, after the fact – after you were done, right? 

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

Steven Schapansky

Did he tell you who was gonna be or did you…?

Chris Chibnall  

Yeah, oh yeah ‘cause I had to sign off the episode. I was actually – “Can you not tell me and can I not see that bit?” And Ceres who is our post-production exec. was like “You have to sign this. You have to watch it and approve. They’ll do it. But you have to sign off.” And I was like, I don’t — I was like, I don’t want to see anything. And then they sent it to me. I was like, “Ok that’s amazing.” That’s amazing. And now I’m back in the, I’m back on the sofa again. Yeah, it was. It was just perfect, you know, so, it was great. Yeah.

Steven Schapansky 

Because Doctor Who’s the you know, it must just be that unique thing where you’re not, you know, you’re a caretaker but you’re also molding the future of it, but knowing that you’re leaving it for someone else because no one wants to be the person that finished off Doctor Who.

Chris Chibnall  

No, and you’re always worried about that every year because also now the thing is, like, you know, like I did three seasons. Three seasons of any other show is really rare now, even to get a second season these days on a drama. Look at all the things that aren’t getting second seasons that are great shows. To do three seasons on a show is extraordinary. You know, I’ve written more Doctor Who than I’ve written Broadchurch. And you know, so yeah, you’re like, I think that’s, that’s a thing in terms of keeping up with modern television, a thing of how does the show keep evolving and keep continuing it? That’s a really interesting discussion and thing, and it will, because now the Disney thing is the perfect solution to opening up space, opening up budgets, opening up — being able to have places for spin-offs, which you know, we wanted to do, but there wasn’t the space or budgets for. So yeah, it’s, yeah, of course. Of course, you worry, and I remember when I got the job, I remember reading an interview with Steven, and the headline was, “I’m Just Glad I Didn’t Kill off Doctor Who”, and I was like, (deadpan) “Thanks. Thanks.” And it’s like, but, you know, yeah, you’re constantly thinking that. And it’s like, and also they were really secretive about the plan coming in after us, you know. Going “There’s a plan, there’s a plan, there’s a plan.” And then it’s like, oh okay, so okay, that’s fine. You know, you can’t be SURE that they’re telling you the truth. But yeah, yeah. So it’s, it’s just delightful and amazing.

Steven Schapansky  

Just as our chat has been Chris; you’ve given us like an hour of your time today, and that is so amazing.

Chris Chibnall  

Well we only have to stop because I have to go and do another panel. You know, I’d happily talk for another couple of hours.

Steven Schapansky  

Part Two coming, uhh, next week. (laughing)

Chris Chibnall

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. (laughing)

Steven Schapansky

Chris Chibnall, thank you very much.

Chris Chibnall 

My pleasure.